The following is a short discussion, abit of a long read, by two Vietnam Veterans, on a VFP/VVAW, group board. The first post is a copy of a question asked and answered by another Vietnam Veteran. The two posts following that are a reply to the original than an answer to that reply.
I would hope that it might help our present Brothers and Sisters, serving in Theaters of War and when they return from, to help find the answers to any questions that may be.
With the Mutiple Tours, Extended Tours, ever Changing Reasons For, and the initial ignorance of what type of Conflict they were led into, as this countries military had already had a long running battle with Guerilla/Insurgent warfare and those lessons still aren't being applied, there will be many more questions that need answering than even we 'Nam vets have been seeking answers for, to the closed ears of our Government and the People of this Country.
A college student posted a request on an internet newsgroup asking for personal narratives from the likes of us addressing the question: "What is a Vietnam Veteran?" This is what I wrote back:
Vietnam veterans are men and women. We are dead or alive, whole or maimed, sane or haunted. We grew from our experiences or we were destroyed by them or we struggle to find some place in between. We lived through hell or we had a pleasant, if scary, adventure. We were Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Red Cross, and civilians of all sorts. Some of us enlisted to fight for God and Country, and some were drafted. Some were gung-ho, and some went kicking and screaming. Like veterans of all wars, we lived a tad bit--or a great bit--closer to death than most people like to think about. If Vietnam vets differ from others, perhaps it is primarily in the fact that many of us never saw the enemy or recognized him or her. We heard gunfire and mortar fire but rarely looked into enemy eyes. Those who did, like folks who encounter close combat anywhere and anytime, are often haunted for life by those eyes, those sounds, those electric fears that ran between ourselves, our enemies, and the likelihood of death for one of us. Or we get hard, calloused, tough. All in a day's work. Life's a bitch then you die. But most of us remember and get twitchy, worried, sad. We are crazies dressed in cammo, wide-eyed, wary, homeless, and drunk. We are Brooks Brothers suit wearers, doing deals downtown. We are housewives, grandmothers, and church deacons. We are college professors engaged in the rational pursuit of the truth about the history or politics or culture of the Vietnam experience. And we are sleepless. Often sleepless. We pushed paper; we pushed shovels. We drove jeeps, operated bulldozers, built bridges; we toted machine guns through dense brush, deep paddy, and thorn scrub. We lived on buffalo milk, fish heads and rice. Or C-rations. Or steaks and Budweiser. We did our time in high mountains drenched by endless monsoon rains or on the dry plains or on muddy rivers or at the most beautiful beaches in the world. We wore berets, bandanas, flop hats, and steel pots. Flak jackets, canvas, rash and rot. We ate cloroquine and got malaria anyway. We got shots constantly but have diseases nobody can diagnose. We spent our nights on cots or shivering in foxholes filled with waist-high water or lying still on cold wet ground, our eyes imagining Charlie behind every bamboo blade. Or we slept in hotel beds in Saigon or barracks in Thailand or in cramped ships' berths at sea. We feared we would die or we feared we would kill. We simply feared, and often we still do. We hate the war or believe it was the best thing that ever happened to us. We blame Uncle Sam or Uncle Ho and their minions and secretaries and apologists for every wart or cough or tic of an eye. We wonder if Agent Orange got us. Mostly--and this I believe with all my heart--mostly, we wish we had not been so alone. Some of us went with units; but many, probably most of us, were civilians one day, jerked up out of "the world," shaved, barked at, insulted, humiliated, de-egoized and taught to kill, to fix radios, to drive trucks. We went, put in our time, and were equally ungraciously plucked out of the morass and placed back in the real world. But now we smoked dope, shot skag, or drank heavily. Our wives or husbands seemed distant and strange. Our friends wanted to know if we shot anybody. And life went on, had been going on, as if we hadn't been there, as if Vietnam was a topic of political conversation or college protest or news copy, not a matter of life and death for tens of thousands. Vietnam vets are people just like you. We served our country, proudly or reluctantly or ambivalently. What makes us different--what makes us Vietnam vets--is something we understand, but we are afraid nobody else will. But we appreciate your asking. Vietnam veterans are white, black, beige and shades of gray; but in comparison with our numbers in the "real world," we were more likely black. Our ancestors came from Africa, from Europe, and China. Or they crossed the Bering Sea Land Bridge in the last Ice Age and formed the nations of American Indians, built pyramids in Mexico, or farmed acres of corn on the banks of Chesapeake Bay. We had names like Rodriguez and Stein and Smith and Kowalski. We were Americans, Australians, Canadians, and Koreans; most Vietnam veterans are Vietnamese. We were farmers, students, mechanics, steelworkers, nurses, and priests when the call came that changed us all forever. We had dreams and plans, and they all had to change...or wait. We were daughters and sons, lovers and poets, beatniks and philosophers, convicts and lawyers. We were rich and poor but mostly poor. We were educated or not, mostly not. We grew up in slums, in shacks, in duplexes, and bungalows and houseboats and hooches and ranchers. We were cowards and heroes. Sometimes we were cowards one moment and heroes the next. Many of us have never seen Vietnam. We waited at home for those we loved. And for some of us, our worst fears were realized. For others, our loved ones came back but never would be the same. We came home and marched in protest marches, sucked in tear gas, and shrieked our anger and horror for all to hear. Or we sat alone in small rooms, in VA hospital wards, in places where only the crazy ever go. We are Republicans, Democrats, Socialists, and Confucians and Buddhists and Atheists--though as usually is the case, even the atheists among us sometimes prayed to get out of there alive. We are hungry, and we are sated, full of life or clinging to death. We are injured, and we are curers, despairing and hopeful, loved or lost. We got too old too quickly, but some of us have never grown up. We want, desparately, to go back, to heal wounds, revisit the sites of our horror. Or we want never to see that place again, to bury it, its memories, its meaning. We want to forget, and we wish we could remember. Despite our differences, we have so much in common. There are few of us who don't know how to cry, though we often do it alone when nobody will ask "what's wrong?" We're afraid we might have to answer. Adam, if you want to know what a Vietnam veteran is, get in your car next weekend or cage a friend with a car to drive you. Go to Washington. Go to the Wall. It's going to be Veterans Day weekend. There will be hundreds there...no, thousands. Watch them. Listen to them. I'll be there. Come touch the Wall with us. Rejoice a bit. Cry a bit. No, cry a lot. I will. I'm a Vietnam Veteran; and, after 30 years, I think I am beginning to understand what that means.
This was posted in response to the above, by Jay Janson:
Fine article, CORRECTION: THEY DID NOT SERVE THEIR COUNTRY Excellent text except for one horribly insensitive slip into a sickening corporate media war promoting post Vietnam War propaganda lie:
" Vietnam vets are people just like you. We served our country, proudly or reluctantly or ambivalently"
Killing Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodian in their very own lands DID NOT 'SERVE' OUR COUNTRY! On the contrary, this brutal massive killing and maiming in the French colonies of Indochina seeking their independence, was a genocidal crime against humanity, the shame and dishonor of which will forever printed in history books and encylopedias for our children, and children all over the world will read about for untold generations of the future.
Jay Janson's much reprinted article below, quotes Eisenhower, John Kerry and Bob Kerry.
DESCRIPTION: Jolted to read in Jan. 23, Huffington Post article, “Swiftboating”, John Kerry’s insensitive references to, “the Swift Boats we loved while we were in uniform on the Mekong Delta" -“the boats we honored when we were in uniform in Vietnam”. Kerry experienced the death these boats brought, called the war an atrocity. Remarks especially sickening for those who, like Jane Fonda, sided with Vietnam fighting Japan, France, and U.S.
TEXT: I mean what shock do Americans need to back off from accepting, cheering on, and aping corporate media entertainment/news adulation of war?
This is a heart breaking subject for one, who has lived in Hanoi among Vietnamese who all lost family during what the Vietnamese call “The American War.”“Killed by the Americans”, they would answer with an expression of Buddhist equanimity on their faces upon inquiry during a festive annual dinner in their traditional custom of honoring of a deceased family member.
The U.S. government now makes nice with the same Vietnam communist dominated government presidents from Truman through Ford sought to destroy, seemingly oblivious to the incredible loss of life. America has come to respect the Vietnam it could not defeat, and could not cut in half.
That is why this writer, was jolted to read in the Jan. 23, 2008 Huffington Post article, “Swiftboating”, John Kerry’s insensitive references to, “the Swift Boats we loved while we were in uniform on the Mekong Delta" ... “the boats we honored when we were in uniform in Vietnam”.
What chilling lack of compassion and poor taste, to call attention, even in retrospect, to their having “honored” and “loved” war equipment that brought undeserved death and destruction to Vietnam.
These unthinking hurtful written remarks are especially sickening for those of us who, like Jane Fonda, were on the side of the Vietnamese who fought first the Japanese, then the French, and thereafter endured years of carpet and napalm bombing by the U.S. during their American crucifixion.
What is most appalling about Kerry’s slip of conscience, is that we have always supposed that given the memory of Kerry’s famous brave action saving his ship and the lives of his comrades by shooting to death a Viet patriot about to launch a rocket, that Kerry must have nightmares about that Viet soldier’s grieving family.
Is this the same John Kerry who denounced the U.S. war in Vietnam as an atrocity in testimony before a congressional committee?
No, one quesses it is the John Kerry who thirty-five years later saluted the Vietnam Veterans, warriors who fought a near defenseless population in a poor Asian French colony of rice farmers, parading across the stage with large American flags to thunderous applause at the convention that would nominate him the Democratic presidential candidate? During his campaign, Kerry and commercial media made the 'Vietnam War' strangely heroic again.
With all the U.S. rapprochement in backing that same communist government for World Trade Organization membership, one wonders if Kerry ever try to contact the family of that Vietnamese patriot he shot to death in combat?
One wonders why Kerry would not be embarrassed to recall love for his swift boat. What of his memory that the crews of those boats participated in a war on the Vietnamese that Kerry testified to have been an atrocity?
Kerry reenlisted for a second tour of 'duty', but took discharge to run for Congress. Did he not know when he enlisted the first time, that Eisenhower had written in his book "Mandate for Change" in 1963, that if there had been an all Vietnam election (blocked by Ike himself), that Ho Chi Minh would have won by a plurality of more than 80%? Oddly enough Kerry would run in part on his military service record in Vietnam fighting to prevent Ho Chi Minh from becoming elected president.
Why does Kerry now believe that he or any Vietnam vets 'served' their country by taking part in a war that killed Vietnamese in their own country, often enough in their own neighborhoods and homes as he deplored in his testimony at the time?
Kerry had a fine college education, which must have included a history of colonialism, which would have included the brutality of French colonial subjugation of the Vietnamese. He must have known that Ho Chi Minh was decorated by our OSS as a dedicated ally of ours against the Japanese and Vichy French. He must have known that Truman, against Roosevelt's promise, had brought the French army back in US ships to fight an 8-year war against our former allies, the Vietnamese. All this because Ho Chi Minh was a communist? A top cabinet minister of the U.S. allied French government was also a communist, but that was OK. Martin Luther King spoke of this history in his 1967 condemnation of U.S. imperialist war.
Perhaps it useless to fault the mature John Kerry for a commonly held American attitude of disinterest in the suffering of families of the millions slaughtered in America’s mistaken and unwinnable wars and nostalgia for his stint in the Navy.
Recruiting our boys to go kill around the world is made easier for the ‘glory’ now associated with the massive killing of Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians. ‘U.S. Big Brother’ media has turned the pre-1975 [shame] into [fame] in the new millennium. No more mention of the war having been ‘a terrible mistake’, and every single politician who ‘served’ in Vietnam is acclaimed as a hero!
Calling the Iraq war a mistake, as do the Democrats, does not carry with it any horror, shame or even the slightest interest in the million Iraqi lives lost. It’s the very few, by comparison, American military lives lost that are worthy of attention and mourning. In American media, a million Iraqi, Afghani, or Vietnamese dead do not equal the weight of one American fallen in the occupation of these nations.
The only attention non-American deaths get is in the highly heralded insurgent, and suspected insurgent, body counts that include men and boys who join up to fight against the American occupation of their countries and are automatically labeled terrorists in U.S. military reports.
The world, watching satellite TV, notices that the general American public, indifferent to its government policies, nevertheless seems to enjoy hearing of the U.S. killing record and body counts in the many small nations its always heroic military invades.
There is zero interest in the suffering of the family members of 'foreigners' who die ‘in harms way' of U.S. military firepower.
With John Kerry recent acquiescing to today’s wars, it is both dismal and disheartening, even bizarre, to recall that young Kerry denouncing the U.S. war on Vietnam as an atrocity in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971.
Muhammad Ali did not need to go to Vietnam to know it was wrong, and he has never changed his mind.
This is a response to what Mr Janson had posted, by George Weber who brought us Dan Mouers well thought answer to a simple question:
Mr. Janson,
I would argue that we did indeed serve our country....meaning that as young recruits our intentions were honorable, regardless of the fact that we were deceived and ultimately used as pawns by a dishonest government in an unjust war.
Perhaps you overlooked the sentence.......
"We came home and marched in protest marches, sucked in tear gas, and shrieked our anger and horror for all to hear."
I would guess that there are many Vietnam vets who disagree with our point of view......but in this case you're preaching to the choir.
I think perhaps you may have overlooked the spirit in which the piece was written.
I leave you to Think on the many similarities to than and today, the many differances as well, and the perceptions of this Country brought about back than to the perceptions we live with now and well into the future!
Add-On: I posted a response to both of the above writings by my brother 'Nam Veterans, on the Morality and Reality of our Country and received this Response back; Moralism Vs. Reality: Take your pick. from another brother.
"NIU noted gunman's scholarship" is the subject title, this kid seemed to be heading in a very good direction.
Just two years ago, Northern Illinois University honored the man identified as the shooter in Thursday's attacks with a dean's award for his sociology work.
The gunman had established himself as an authority on prison systems, having co-authored a manuscript on self-injury in prison and the role of religion in the formation of early prisons in the United States. Both papers were written under the guidance of Jim Thomas, a professor emeritus at NIU and a nationally renowned criminal-justice expert.
Who apparently took his subject interests very serious!
The gunman also served as vice president of the Academic Criminal Justice Association chapter at NIU.
The student group aims to educate the DeKalb community "about and promote knowledge and understanding of all areas of the criminal justice system, especially corrections and juvenile justice," according to its Web site.
Could frustrations, or other negative feelings, from his work somehow invade his mind, that he took such a tragic and destructive direction, wanting to die but not being satisfied in going alone or unnoticed?
Update: A seventh person has died in the shooting, according to DeKalb County Coroner Dennis J. Miller. In addition, he released the identities of four of the victims: Daniel Parmenter, 20, of Westchester; Catalina Garcia, 20, of Cicero; Ryanne Mace, 19, of Carpentersville; and Julianna Gehant, 32, of Meridan.
Taking six Innocent people with him and tramatizing untold numbers of others!
Peters said the gunman had no police record.
No police record, just a normal everyday person, those we know, meet, see.............., nothing unussual!
Will we ever know, Probably not!!!
How extremely Sad!
Could this Society be breaking down completely, self destructing from the inside?
For a first hand report, from a Student of NIU, Ilona Meagher, who maintains PTSD Combat-Winning the War Within, blogspot and recently published "Moving a Nation To Care", about the effects of War on military personal, and others, Visit this DKOS Diary Ilona posted last night after getting home from NIU, she was right there, next to the building, where this tragic event took place!
As Iraqis who fled their homes during the war begin to return, some are finding it safer to move into areas inhabited by other members of their sect, creating segregated communities of Shia and Sunni Muslims at ever-increasing rates. The country has seen a drop in sectarian violence as a result, but some observers are concerned by the trend's other possible consequences.
This does not bode well for a countries citizens, that once lived in relative comfort in a mixed religious/tribal sectarian society, under the rule of a dictatorship once propped up by the west.
Now, as Iraqis return -- due to the decline in violence or because they ran out of money or face new visa restrictions in other countries -- many cannot move back to their homes because they are destroyed or occupied by other families, or they are choosing to live elsewhere.
Ethnic cleansing of neighborhoods and sections of the country, taking place under the control of an occupying military, may be bringing a calm to the destructive violence, but it leaves these area's wide open to control of sectarian groups and not a weak central government.
Morning Edition, February 14, 2008 · With the downturn in violence, some Baghdad neighborhoods have begun to spring back to life. Iraqi forces have been taking more responsibility for security. But with U.S. military officials committed to bringing some troops home by mid-summer, some Iraqis are beginning to ask what the city will look like a few months from now. Peter Kenyon You can listen here
We created the extremely dangerous unstability by our invasion, in this War of Choice, and we have perpetuated that unstability by our longterm occupation and support of the puppet government!
Will what is taking place in Iraq, under the U.S. occupation, create an even more unstable country and regional problems leading to even more danger to the National Security of this country, and citizens of, and others than already may exist?
Time will tell, but I believe it will, for it was the failed foreign policies of the past and recent present that brought us to this evolving destructive point in todays World!
We aren't "Fighting them over there so as to not fight them here.", we are creating even more hatreds, in once innocent people in that country and enhancing the hatreds within the region, and for some they will lash out in the blowback of 'Criminal Terrorism', and already have!
Under the Ideologies of Conservative Republicanism and National Security this is the direction of this Countries Policies:
Enhance more Hatreds anywhere possible, through propaganda, destruction, mass death, under the terms 'Freedom' and 'Democracy' in order to Continue threats against from similar Failed Policies of Past!
Those Hatreds lead to 'Blowback' by recipients of the many Failed Policies called 'Criminal Terrorism'!
Take the word 'Terrorism', while practicing same, and paste it on any group needed to Enhance the Fear in Populations causing Perpetual Conflicts and Huge Profits for any Military Industrial Complex and Control by same for Further Policies set up to Fail!
And when 'Johnny and Jane' come Marching Home, Dump Them {that one cuts across all Political Ideology and This Society }
It's Not 'Strong on National Defense', it Destroys 'National Defense' and brings about more and more 'Conflicts of Choice' for Greed and Power!
If we don't hold those Responsible for the Wrath of Failed Policies Instituted than in the eyes of the World 'We Have Excepted All That Has Been Done In Our Names' and are thus Just As Guilty!
WASHINGTON — The chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee blasted the Pentagon on Wednesday for sending a wounded Fort Carson soldier back to Iraq, questioning whether it had been done to fill depleted ranks.
Citing a Denver Post report, Sen. Carl Levin, a Michigan Democrat, asked about an Army captain's e-mail saying that Fort Carson's 3rd Brigade Combat Team had "been having issues reaching deployable strength," and that some "borderline" soldiers were sent overseas.
"Are there shortages in deployment strength that are now causing some of these decisions to be made that otherwise would not be?" Levin asked at a committee hearing.
Seems as these reports keep coming they all can be considered 'followups', one after the other after the other after the other....., building to what is actually happening to our Military, but Especially the Military Personal that serve, so it seems, not the Country but the whims of the Civilian and some Military Leadership as well as Ideologies not followed by the Majority, as the Nation of Apathy tunes out to their Service and the Care given for same!
WATERTOWN, N.Y. — The four tours in Iraq served by the Second Brigade at Fort Drum here have created an unusual level of stress, especially after the standard Iraq tour was increased to 15 months from 12. Yet according to a new report on the shortcomings of mental health care at the base, a soldier’s wait to be seen for psychological help can take more than a month.
More than half of all veterans who took their own lives after returning from Iraq or Afghanistan were members of the National Guard or Reserves, according to new government data that prompted activists on Tuesday to call for a closer examination of the problem.
The research, conducted by the department's Office of Environmental Epidemiology, provides the first demographic look at suicides among veterans from those wars who left the military.
I could give a number of reason, speculative, on the why of these suicides, but the reasons are very obvious and should be recognizable to everyone, think Regular Military leading to what the Reserves and National Guard are normally used for, especially as to the National Guard. Than think what this Country has been using them for these last five years! And Think War!
Received this head's up on two important upcoming House Veterans Affairs Committee hearings from Mike and Kim Bowman. In December as you may recall, they offered Chairman Bob Filner and the committee heartrending testimony on their son Tim's suicide. Tim was an Illinois National Guard member, one of the OEF/OIF veterans' groups most at risk for taking their own lives after returning home.
For those Really Interested in what is Actually Going On, outside of cult worshipping individuals running in the Presidential Race, can visit Ilona's site to take note of the dates of these Important Hearings and her added comments as well as all the Important information she passes on to the rest of us, and her Dedication!
I could add a number of links to past reports on Military and Veteran Health Care, especially as to the Mental Health conditions of many returning Military Personal, at other Bases and Veterans facilities but just have a few more I would like to note.
Like this one from another well known base, and recently reported on, Fort Carson:
Paul Sullivan, executive director of Veterans for Common Sense, was outraged. "If he's an inpatient in a hospital, they should have never taken him out. The chain of command needs to be held accountable for this. Washington needs to get involved at the Pentagon to make sure this doesn't happen again. "First, we had the planeload of wounded, injured and ill being forced back to the war zone. And now we have soldiers forcibly removed from mental hospitals. The level of outrage is off the Richter scale."
Paul has the article, at above, along with the link back to the original at the Denver Post.
The NY Times report, at the top, comes on the heals of a Tragic Incident that happened last weekend and I posted about Drum Soldier Killed by Police 2-09-08at my site as well as at ePluribus Media and Vet Voice, where I stayed with the report, from right after it broke, updating as new information came in.
I have the statement, given by the Fort Drum Military Spokesperson, from Sunday morning, at either of the above links.
In the statement we have this:
To our knowledge he had not been referred nor sought counseling for any battle-related illnesses or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
Apparently there were no reported signs this Iraq Veteran was suffering from PTSD, but if you read the initial, than followup reports, on how an initial 911 call and hangup, about an apparent domestic disbute, turned into a mutiple shooting and death something more than what was known was happening to Staff Sgt. Dustin J. McMillen age 29.
My thoughts, as this all unfolded, led me to think two things, he either was having a dramatic flashback or was experiancing unseen depression and opted for Suicide By Police, a tragic event that seems to be growing in our society! In the post, at my site, a comment was left that was signed as the sister of Dustin. I can't verify that is the case, but I don't believe it was just some random person commenting:
I am actually Staff Sgt. McMillens sister. He was the best soilder out there a wonderful husband father and brother. The lack of interest in helping these soilders get help when they get back from a war zone is what killed my brother yesterday. Someone needs to realize they are killing soilders not only in the war but at home afterwards. Its tragic and my brother will be terribly missed.
Rebecka McMillen
Dustin McMillen February 11, 2008 FORT DRUM, N.Y. — Funeral services and burial for Staff Sgt. Dustin J. McMillen will be held at a later date at Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia.
Calling hours are 7 to 9 p.m. Thursday and 2 to 4 and 7 to 9 p.m. Friday at the Reed & Benoit Funeral Home, 632 State St., Watertown.
Mr. McMillen, 29, of Saratoga Ave., died Saturday at his home.
Born June 20, 1978, in Klammath Falls, Ore., a son of Kenneth and Vickie Crowder McMillen, he joined the Army in 1998.
He married Alexis Fellerman September 23, 1998.
Besides his wife and parents of Oregon, he is survived by a daughter, Sydney Rose; two stepsons, Sean and Zachery, all of Fort Drum; a brother, Patrick Casey, Pa.; a sister Rebecca Crowder, Ore.; a niece and a nephew.
Information provided by Reed and Benoit Funeral Home and Newzjunky, Watertown, N.Y.
Washington denies responsibility for the effects of chemical warfare, fearing that legal precedent may limit future military endeavors.
Long after the last bullet has been fired in a war, unexploded bombs, landmines and toxic chemicals continue to maim and kill civilians. This is particularly true of the Vietnam war. Three decades after US soldiers and diplomats scrambled aboard the last planes out of Saigon in April 1975, the toxins they left behind still poison Vietnam. Relations with the United States have been normalized since the 1990s, but the denial of justice to the victims of Agent Orange remains a major bone of contention.
Not only are Vietnamese still maimed from treading on unexploded bombs, they are also victims of this insidious scourge that poisons water and food supplies, causing various cancers and crippling deformities. Eighty million liters of Agent Orange were sprayed on the jungles of Vietnam, destroying swathes of irreplaceable rainforest through massive defoliation and leaving a toxic trail of dioxin contamination in the soil for decades. The legacy of this chemical warfare can even be inflicted on the unborn, with Agent Orange birth deformities now being passed on to a third generation.
Many of us are starting to prepare our 2007 taxes, but how many of us know what our tax dollars are actually paying for? FCNL calculates that 43 cents of every dollar {PDF} you'll pay in taxes go to pay for current and past military activities.
"Less than 1 percent of the public is making the sacrifice that these troops [in Iraq and Afghanistan] are making," Murtha said. He noted his proposal for a war tax, which was shot down by the Democratic leadership. "You can't put a trillion-dollar war on a credit card and leave the bills for our children to pay," he said. "The same Americans suffering in Iraq today will be paying for this borrowed war for the rest of their lives."
He goes on to lay out what Costs this War has reaped, and it's not only the Monetary Costs, much Deeper, Very Much Deeper!
"The military is in worse shape than they were seven years ago. No question -- everybody will tell you that."
This was in the Washington Post on the 11th, today, the 12th, we get the following LTE:
Tallying the War's Costs Tuesday, February 12, 2008
Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) got most of the costs of the trillion-dollar Iraq war right, as noted in Walter Pincus's Fine Print column [In the Loop, Feb. 11]. At least in this column, though, Mr. Murtha did not mention the cost of lives lost or of caring for the wounded -- costs this country will be paying for decades.
Paul Sullivan, executive director of Veterans for Common Sense, was outraged. "If he's an inpatient in a hospital, they should have never taken him out. The chain of command needs to be held accountable for this. Washington needs to get involved at the Pentagon to make sure this doesn't happen again. "First, we had the planeload of wounded, injured and ill being forced back to the war zone. And now we have soldiers forcibly removed from mental hospitals. The level of outrage is off the Richter scale."
Paul has the link to the Denver Post article at the above.
They want you Vets to believe they're not, it's All a Mistake!
Or so they , quickly? backtracked, only after one Retired Air Force Major, Robert Hanafin, sent the letter to ABC News, you'll find that link, in PDF, below as well as they're apology in PDF.
Bobby, is not one you want to piss off.
Oh and it seems the Veterans Charities, those given extremely low grades on actually helping Veterans, while doing more to help themselves, are still playing their game, more about that below.
Could this be why, the right leaning American Legion, has been virtually Quiet, along with the VFW, on all the reports coming to light about treatment, and shortchanging Again, of the returning Iraq and Afgan Veterans, to busy figuring ways, Illegally, to enhance their dwindling membership and coffers!
U.S. postal inspectors have been asked to investigate whether the American Legion tried to trick veterans into signing up for membership in the Legion. In a mailing last year to 800,000 former members, the American Legion said their "benefits as a veteran of the United States Armed Forces have lapsed" and that the only way to "reinstate these important benefits" was to pay $20 to reinstate their American Legion membership.
It was signed by Legion National Adjutant Robert Spanogle, which he now says it was "a serious mistake."
Oh I'd say so Mr. Spanogle, and as a Veteran you know Full Well how big a Mistake it is!
A retired Air Force major, Robert Hanafin, has filed a complaint of mail fraud with postal inspectors after becoming outraged by what he viewed as a deceptive letter designed to scare people into rejoining the American Legion. According to Hanafin, "Any veterans organization that uses any such low-down scams to increase membership deserves to stay in the 19th century."
Veteran Spanogle, after blaming the 'private contractor', who does their mailings, had this to say:
And the Major, Bobby Hanafin, comes back to Spanogles with the obvious:
Maj. Hanafin, however, said he doesn't buy the American Legion's explanation that the first letter was a mistake. He points to specific language in the letter that states the benefits were given "in accordance with a special act of Congress." According to Hanafin, "The disservice they are doing to America's veterans...goes far beyond shameful."
You go, as ussual, Bobby, putting the Truth to the Fiction!
I'm frankly amazed that these right leaning groups and ideology followers, not just veterans groups, still seem to think that this countries citizens are as Stupid as they seem to be, over and over and over the corruption and scams they think they can get away with, as they make them so easy to not only Debunk but get caught! Want to improve the economy, start building more prisons and put these idiots behind those bars, we'd be filling them up as quick as we build them, and we'd be building them for a long time!
And as said, in the beginning, here's some more on the caring,compassionate {compasionate- the bush mantra?}? Veterans Charities.
But first, to refresh your short term memory, watch this Video about the initial investigative reports from ABC News:
And this one as well from the Hearings:
And you certainly don't want to miss this great commentary, by Bob Schieffer, on Gen. Tommy Franks participation, and selling of his name and stature, in these Veterans Charitable Organizations:
An now on to a report published in the New York Times on Febuary 8th, 2008:
An envelope arrived in our office the other day. It had the bulky, tawdry look of junk mail: pink and lavender Easter eggs, a plastic address window and a photo of a young man in fatigue shorts using crutches to stand on his only leg. “Thousands of severely wounded troops are suffering,” it read. “Will you help them this Easter?”
It was a plea for money from the Coalition to Salute America’s Heroes, one of the worst private charities — but hardly the only — that have been shamefully milking easy cash from the suffering and heartache caused by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
The coalition and its sister organization, Help Hospitalized Veterans, were among a dozen military-related charities given a grade of F in a study last December by the American Institute of Philanthropy, a nonprofit watchdog group. These and other charities have collected hundreds of millions of dollars from kind-hearted Americans and squandered an unconscionable amount of it on overhead and expenses — 70 percent or 80 percent, or more.
The report goes on to explain where Most Of The Money Collected Actually Goes, than gives us this bit of Truth:
And what did the soldiers get? Try almost $18.8 million in “charitable” phone cards sent to troops overseas in 2006 — not to let them call their families, but rather to call up a stateside business that sells sports scores.
You can find abit more, after reading the report, at the link within this:
Gaston County company gets $15M from feds, but WCNC finds hundreds still un-hired
RANLO, N.C. -- The military promises the company millions in defense contracts.
The company gets help from a key member of Congress, who receives thousands in campaign donations from company execs.
WCNC: “You don't have anybody working here yet.”
Torbett: “We're not making anything yet.”
WCNC: “And I guess the people who live in Gaston County are saying you're not hiring anybody either. When will that happen?”
Torbett: “Gosh, I wish I could just put an absolute date on it. I can't say that today. There’s no way I can say that today.”
And what does Sue Myrick have to say:
Myrick now admits “we made a mistake in saying 200 jobs.”
“Quite frankly,” continued Myrick, “if I went over there and found a bunch of Mercedes and Lexuses parked out front, I'd be a little disturbed. But I think they're being frugal with their money.”
After 5 years and $15M, promised jobs unfilled The military promises the company millions in defense contracts. The company gets help from a key member of Congress, who receives thousands in campaign donations from company execs. But now, after five years and $15 million of your tax dollars, what about the company's promise to hire hundreds of new workers in Gaston County?
WATERTOWN, N.Y. — The four tours in Iraq served by the Second Brigade at Fort Drum here have created an unusual level of stress, especially after the standard Iraq tour was increased to 15 months from 12. Yet according to a new report on the shortcomings of mental health care at the base, a soldier’s wait to be seen for psychological help can take more than a month.
More than half of all veterans who took their own lives after returning from Iraq or Afghanistan were members of the National Guard or Reserves, according to new government data that prompted activists on Tuesday to call for a closer examination of the problem.
I visited 
The NY Times report, at the top, comes on the heals of a Tragic Incident that happened last weekend and I posted about Drum Soldier Killed by Police 2-09-08 
Long after the last bullet has been fired in a war, unexploded bombs, landmines and toxic chemicals continue to maim and kill civilians. This is particularly true of the Vietnam war. Three decades after US soldiers and diplomats scrambled aboard the last planes out of Saigon in April 1975, the toxins they left behind still poison Vietnam. Relations with the United States have been normalized since the 1990s, but the denial of justice to the victims of 
Not only are Vietnamese still maimed from treading on unexploded bombs, they are also victims of this insidious scourge that poisons water and food supplies, causing various cancers and crippling deformities. Eighty million liters of Agent Orange 